Smooth Vignettes

[JoePixel]

Yesterday the sales dept. pulled a job off of the press because the vignettes weren't smooth and there was a hard edge where the vignette was supposed to stop.

This can be common if the vignette is set up in Photoshop and the file has some banding, but this vignette was set up as a Quark vignette.

The funny thing is that this job is a repeat (with type changes) of a job we printed back in April and the vignettes looked absolutely perfect back when it was printed then.

I checked the previous file and the values of the vignette and made sure they were the same in the current file and yes they were the exact same values, size, colors, coordinates and everything.

One more thing. There were 3 vignettes of the same values. One on the left, one in the middle and one on the right side of the sheet. The left one looked perfect, the middle and right had the banding and hard edge.

HOW CAN IT LOOK OK ON ONE PART OF THE SHEET AND NOT THE OTHER? IT CAN'T BE A PREPRESS ISSUE THEN.

HOW CAN IT LOOK GREAT ON THE PREVIOUSLY PRINTED PIECE FROM APRIL AND NOT LOOK OK NOW?

IT CAN'T BE A PREPRESS PROBLEM

I made a plate of the darkest color Cyan. The plate looked perfect. No hard lines, no banding. It looked absolutely great.

Press and sales said it had to do with something in the Prepress Dept.

I'm sure you have all heard that before.

To fix this, I told them I was going to re-rip the job and output another set of plates. When I came in this morning, the pressman said that I had fixed it.

The vignettes looked smooth, no hard edges.

I'm sure you have all had this before, when the Pressman throws up his hands in the air and says "I can't do anything with this, you have to give me new plates with everything fixed"

Electronically, there were no differences. We didn't change any plate processor chemicals, used the same batch of plates, ripped the same way and just output another set.

Most of the time it's a good thing that management and sales don't know much about the prepress environment, but sometimes it can be a pain.

The rule of thumb is that you always get screwed by the department who handles the job before you. Sales and planning are always screwing up Prepress with the wrong or missing info. Press is always screwed up by the Prepress and Bindery always gets screwed by the Press.

Just venting today.

[Sparky]

lots of variables left out here. Has anything in the RIP changed? is the Quark the same version? IS the Document the exact one run from April?
This is not something that can happen on press, but yet it also can't happen in Pre-press if no variables have changed. I would look into the Calibration of the plate-maker or certify the RIP to make sure nothing is different.

PS In my opinion, and the opinion of many of my peers Quark generated vignettes are the worst. If you make a gradation in PS then ad about 1 or 2 in the "Add Noise" to it especially if done to the individual channels this creates very clean and smooth vignettes.

Also remember the dpi vs resolution vs lpi rules and see if anything changed.

[zox]

Well, you didn't give us much info.
What is your worflow, type of rip?
Anything could happen.
In this case, have you seen old and new plates, I mean that's all it takes to figure out if something has been screwed on your (prepress) side or not.

I would look at both old and new plates and see if there is difference, if not than you should have nothing to worry and your pressman is an idiot who is trying to cover his a$$.

If there is difference than someone in prepress probably ripped job wrong.
I don't have any info but for example we work with Brisques with CREo workflow and in older rip you have option to rip vignettes to CT or not while in new one they always go to CT so there is your potential culprit.

[ajr]

Sounds like a calibration problem to me, how often do you check it? We have to do check ours on a weekly babsis, if you are losing a 2% dot it can make a hell of a difference on a vignette.

[JoePixel]

The rip hasn't changed since the last time it printed. The plates are calibrated weekly, the chemicals in the processor are clean.

Basically, nothing changed mechanically or digitally since the last time we printed. I verified that the new file is the EXACT same values as the last time. Same vignette colors, same vignette coordinates and size.

We use a Brisque CTP workflow and have never had a problem with vignettes.

This particular vignette looked spectacular on the plates. There was no banding, no hard edges and so forth.

It absolutely had to be a press problem because there were 3 vignettes on the sheet. The one on the left hand side of the sheet was fine, the one in the middle and the right had the banding and hard edge.

All we did was reoutput another set of plates.

It could have been a bad batch of plates, bad batch of chemistry, but these plates were output within hours of each other with the same box of plates and the same chemistry.

I was just venting, complaining about the pressroom. It's typical of some bad pressmen, they complain and say they can't do anything about it. I have to take their word.

I don't look at every digital file that comes to me and say "I can't work with this". I have to make it work. I would love to be able to get all fonts, all images, all files prepped perfectly but I don't. I have to make it work. Sometimes pressmen complain because they can't fix something. This particular pressman ain't exactly the strongest pressman in the world.

So in the end it finished fine, but it just disappoints me and my counterparts when people point fingers at the prepress dept. when they don't know anything about digital workflows.

Nobody can explain how 1 of the 3 vignettes looks good on press, but they can sure complain together about it being bad plates. Yeah, right. I'm not buying that.

[PrepressRabbit]

I used to work with an oldtimer who said that back in the old days whenever the pressroom had a fit problem they would never restrip anything, just burn another set of plates. And magically the pressroom would then be able to fit the job. He said they used to compliment him on what a great job he did in fixing things! I believe that a lot of press types are one step above incompetent. We just had a job come back off the press (8up 38" wide sheet, double hit black), We are rerunning the job at our cost because the first time there was no spray powder so the job stuck together! Now they are trying to match one flat to the a previously run flat and trying to blame us because they can't make it work. They are getting all sorts of mixed values across the sheet. But here's the kicker: The same logo is being used on each page, and it looks different all the way across the sheet, on every page. Everything on our end is perfect, calibration, chemistry. Good thing pressmen make more than everyone else!

[zox]

he he, I hear you.
Almighty pressman
I've had my share of arguing with Pressman over something, now these days I don't really care.
If job bounce back for some reason, I investigate as I have to but as soon as I find out that it is not us, prepress, I make report and send job back to rpessroom for them to fight over.
So far the results have been 100% of the "prepress errors" were actually Pressman errors.

No more hard feelings, I am even in good relationship with most of the pressmans and they come for advice on computer purchases etc..

[Sparky]

Originally Posted by PrepressRabbit

I used to work with an oldtimer who said that back in the old days whenever the pressroom had a fit problem they would never restrip anything, just burn another set of plates. And magically the pressroom would then be able to fit the job. He said they used to compliment him on what a great job he did in fixing things! I believe that a lot of press types are one step above incompetent. We just had a job come back off the press (8up 38" wide sheet, double hit black), We are rerunning the job at our cost because the first time there was no spray powder so the job stuck together! Now they are trying to match one flat to the a previously run flat and trying to blame us because they can't make it work. They are getting all sorts of mixed values across the sheet. But here's the kicker: The same logo is being used on each page, and it looks different all the way across the sheet, on every page. Everything on our end is perfect, calibration, chemistry. Good thing pressmen make more than everyone else!

I resemble that remark!! 8O What that "old Timer" (and I may be considered one) said is, that once you mount a plate on a press and tug a little here and stretch a little there to get the fit correct, there's no going back. So once the pressman (if he's worth his salt) sees what the problem is he can mount another set of plates and "bring the fit in" without over stretching the plates.
I was the Stripping forman for many years with Continental Graphics in Los Angeles, and our pressmen ran a 40" 5/color Kamori and a 40" 4/color (w/perfector) Heidelberg. I was witness many times to what I just described. Knowing I had stripped the job dead nuts on, and the plates were perfect, jobs would often give them headaches, trying to tweak the plates here and there to make it fit, but once they were beyond help another plate or two usually fixed the problem.

We "old timers" really do know what the hell we are saying. :? :? 8)

[mattbeals]

I always build my gradients in Photoshop as gray scale TIFFs and add just a hint of gaussian noise. It has never failed me...