What the? Is this for real?

[soilworker]

Okay, this had my boss and I cracking up Friday afternoon. It's almost like CS2 is trying to bully or tease me. Here's the schtick..... I've got a page in InDesign that refuses to RIP correctly. I mean, it makes the correct looking DCS file and prints from a laser printer but when I send it to our DuPont IG4 it fails and separates into 2 cyan plates.

Now, I'm no stranger to this sort of problem. We get them much more often in Quark (big surprise) but they usually make some sense. Not with InDesign. After a few hours of trouble shooting I've narrowed down the problem. Here it is.... wait for it.....

InDesign doesn't like where a certain image at a certain size is on the page. That's it. The page fails at the proofer only when the image is in the spot it is at the size it is. I've shrunk it, enlarged it, rotated it, and moved it and it works every time. Just not where it is at it's current size. I've even tried recreating the image, resaving it and replacing it and it's frame in InDesign.... no luck.

So, instead of boring all you with my story I'll say this. It's basically a Photoshop EPS image (not really, but for explanation sake it's close enough) with a clipping path. We use these all the time so I don't see it being the problem. It was hanging off the edge of the page (sloppy design) but that wasn't it (didn't think it was but I was desperate). It's placed at about 167% of it's original size (again, sloppy design, it's only 300 dpi) but I've made it work larger and smaller as well in the same spot. I've even kept it the same size and just moved it and it worked. We are working pretty much with a PDF workflow using ID presets to PDF to hot folders in Nexus 7.5.

So, if anyone has any ideas as to why InDesign might dislike an image at certain coordinates at a certain size I'd love to hear what you have to say. I'll keep plugging away. I'm very curious indeed.

Thanks,
~Soilworker :twisted:

[cari]

Have you tried just using a Photoshop File format? i.e. saving as .PSD

Why is DCS/EPS being used in ID CS2?

Or if the file contains relevant vector data save as Photoshop PDF.

[soilworker]

I did try saving as a .TIF and got the same result. .PSD is not an "allowed" format in our workflow so I haven't tried that yet. The only time I go outside our workflow is for last ditch efforts to get an page out and I haven't gotten to that point yet. I'm almost enjoying fighting with it.

As for your DCS/EPS question.... We don't use DCS in ID. We use the usual file formats for the most part eps, ai, tiff(the others are engineered by the largest printing companies and we've used them for years). We use PDF presets to create a PDF from InDesign and then drop it in a Nexus hot folder. The Nexus output that we proof from and send directly to our printers are DCS files.

The only relevant data in the image is a clipping path which certainly must be used because of the format (don't ask). Again, as for the PS PDF, that's only a route I'd go for a last ditch effort. The files I work on need to be availabe to our creative departments to be picked up for future promotions and catalogs. That being the case the files have to adhere to workflow guidelines but still have to avoid output issues like this. So, I've got to find a way to troubleshoot this within guidelines. It may not be easy but I hear that's why they pay me. I'll keep your ideas in mind though. Thanks for your help.

[beermonster]

ello

well for a start i'd try a "save-as" and overwrite the original - its something i've done before and its worked

then i'd mask the image that bleeds off the page - just as a "try"

i'd deffo be looking at using a .psd file asap though - saves all dcs2 crap happening and is pretty good as a workable format.

now i may be wrong here <and thats usual> but instead of enlarging it in idcs, i'd maybe do it in photoshop and re-import so it sits on the page at 100% size. i guess enlarging it in either isnt the way to go, but if ya dont have the image at a bigger size yer kinda stuffed.

just a few things to try good luk

[soilworker]

Hey there Monster. Unfortunately I've already tried the save as and overwritten the original. I also modified the frame so that the excess bleed was eliminated. I thought they were both great ideas but unfortunately neither worked.

I'm going to wait a bit longer on the psd idea though. Once I've exhausted all other possibilities then I'll go that route. And as for the resizing it hasn't seemed to care much because I've gotten it to work at a myriad of sizes, even larger. it just doesn't like being in that spot at that size. I know that's it's better to import at 100% but the designers do what they want and don't like to listen to the suggestions of the Premedia team..... wouldn't want to hinder their creativity now would we?

It seems like I've got a new file on my hands with the same or a similar problem that makes no sense. It's odd because all the ID files I'm having issues with were all created by our new designer. I'm curious as to whether maybe his ID needs to be uninstalled and reinstalled perhaps? Well, that's down the line anyways. Thanks.

~Soilworker.

[Sparky]

One thing I didn't dee mentioned (or I'm blind), did you try "Pre-scaling" the file before bringing it into ID, and if you did, did you try to scale it up in PS then scale it down in ID???

just curious :roll:

[cari]

I did try saving as a .TIF and got the same result. .PSD is not an "allowed" format in our workflow so I haven't tried that yet. The only time I go outside our workflow is for last ditch efforts to get an page out and I haven't gotten to that point yet. I'm almost enjoying fighting with it.

I would seriously look at revising your workflow, to accommodate for what is recommended as preferred workflow:
use of native .AI files, use of native PSD files and Photoshop PDFs for logo/image placement.

Reason for this (amongst others): This will retain live transparency, and flattening therefor doesn't occur till a later stage in your workflow. The later you can flatten things the better :-) . Placement of EPS files will call on flattened information.

What RIP / version are you outputting? As far as I know resizing in InDesign shouldn't cause problems on output to Adobe PS Level 3 Rips.

[soilworker]

Hi Cari, Unfortunately it's not that easy. I work for an extraordinarily large company (biggest in the world for our line of business) who has been doing things this way for years before I came around and successfully I might add. I've had plenty of suggestions as to how we can improve the workflow but there are limitations to what we can do for a few main reason.

First, we can't tell the creative departments how to do their jobs and what formats to use to do it. We do make suggestions though which are largely ignored. They don't care how easy it is for us in premedia as long as they can create in their own way. If you ask them it's up to us to make it work..... not exactly the greatest teamwork.

Secondly, this department and the workflow here were created by a prepress mastermind (not just by this site's standards, but a real bigwig in the industry). With that being said, things do work perfectly 99% of the time with how things are now. Having an occasional bizarre problem really doesn't warrant a workflow overhaul. Though I can agree that things need a bit of an update (and it's being done slowly but surely) we are too large to just change how we do things on the spot. Not only that but our prepress wizard also has quite an ego and getting someone with 30 or so years of experience to change things based on what a guy under 30 says isn't easy.

Lastly, as far as the formats we use. I agree that we should use .AI over an .eps but managment has their reasons and like I said, it usually works no problem. And we have millions of images as .EPS from over the years and updating them all would be insane. PSDs would be great but most of our work is still done in Quark v4-v6 so a TIF is preferred because the PSD won't work in Quark. They've really shyed away from most forms of PDF so far as well although we are starting to work in that direction.

On to the next thing. We have to flatten up front before we rip because our rip can't handle live tranparencies. We currently use Nexus 7.5 (ps 3)and the only way to get it work with transparencies is to either flatten the image before you rip it or use an OPI workflow (for drop shadows) which we use for Quark because it can't handle native transparencies. Much of this will go away with Quark 7 and our inevitable upgrade to Nexus 8 which can handle live transparencies and blending modes.

I agree that resizing in InDesign shouldn't cause these problems. But, it's not our workflow or the formats we're using either. I've tried everything under the sun that I could think of including changing and replacing the image as a Photoshop PDF, PSD, AI, EPS etc. None of it works. It's just a weird anomaly. It simply doesn't like being the size it is where it is. I can make it smaller or larger in the same spot and it works. I can keep it same size and move it and it works...... just not where it is at the size it is. For now we used our last effort workaround and rasterized the whole damned thing and ripped it out of Quark which worked. Next step is to involve Adobe and Artwork Systems (Nexus) and find out why this is happening because there is no logical explanation for it on our end.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a jerk but the whole process has annoyed me, I'm tired, I'm getting a migraine and I'm having a really bad day. I really do appreciate your input, Cari

Oh, Sparky, I just saw your post now. I did try that too and unfortunately it didn't get me anywhere. It's a great idea though. Thanks!

~Soilworker

[prepress_brillance_43]

Sometimes... even the biggest of beasts have to RE-evaluate their tactics or they will be swallowed. REALLY, REALLY push for a "reexamining" of the current workflow and try to incorporate(not overhaul) some of the newest formats. Even if egos get brusied, the company will suffer in the long run if they dont start incorporating new standards....

just my .02... really only worth about .0000002 though.

[beermonster]

iyyy iyy yiy

ok - at the risk of stringing this one out......

does the offending item interact with anything else? maybe a clipping path overlaps a mask somehow? If, like you say, when you move it, it is then ok - then maybe something else is causing the issue?

What I do when i get this kinda thing <and i just bet you've done all this> is simplify the file - i put certain element onto their own layers and use that as a start. I can then output every element - by layer if needed - delete layers as i go along - exclude elements etc. It does usually show up the culprit - IF its the file

If the file interacts with nothing else, there are no fonts in the job and absolutely no question of Indy being corrupt or permissions needing repairing or the usual stuff.....it says to me the image is crap <somehow>

its not rotated by any minute stupid amount is it? like 0.00111 - that can cause issues with some rips <as i'm sure yer aware>. perhaps the scaling <could be something mad like 75.000111%> is tripping it up? maybe adjust it to a full number scale as opposed to a fraction <75% as opposed to 75.001111>

also - with the clipping path - i've had times where, for no good reason - i've had to re-draw it. no big issue really but a pain. maybe open the image in photoshop, redraw and save the clip path and see if that helps, leaving the flatness box empty

gotta say - ya really got me intrigued on this one :? keep us informed