Where's the line to draw...

[prepress_brillance_43]

I agree Dan... send them easy jobs this way... so what, that it is ONLY $40, what'd it take? 5 minutes?... I like earning $40/5minutes... how about you?

guest>
I feel like if you give the client just a pdf, you are only setting yourself up for another phone call 2 days later asking for the natives because the client couldnt edit the pdf... just DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME... but that's just my feelings about it....

[DCurry]

Originally Posted by prepress_brillance_43

the print shop wont release the previous year's art to the school. I've heard of shops doing this in an attempt to keep the account and I think it is WRONG. The art is the property of the CLIENT.

If the client supplied the artwork to the printer, then it is the client's property. However, I feel that if the printer created the files (from scratch) in order to get the job, the files belong to the printer. The customer could purchase these files at a mutually agreed-upon price if they want to take the job elsewhere.

When I got married, I hired a photographer. This was before everyone was digital, so he shot film. His policy (and this is standard practice, I believe) was that the negatives were his property. He held onto them for 5 years, at which time he gave us the option of purchasing the negs for $100. If we declined, the negs were tossed. Seems perfectly fair to me.

[prepress_brillance_43]

but if they PAID for the print, and the print company said that design was included, then they have already paid for the design, the files should be theirs.... but that's just how I feel. I know if I was the school and had already paid for the print and had been told design was included(free) then I would feel like the files were mine, and I would be really pissed off if the printer then tried to charge me again for the files.... and to me this leads to people, who have been or could be, potential clients in the future getting a bad taste in their mouth about the print industry. I think its time to straigten out the reputation of the print biz... am I the only one who feels that way? :?

[preppy]

The GAG (Graphic Artist Guild) produces an annual book with pricing and ethical guidelines for artist, illustrators, designers etc. Who owns the artwork is determined by the right transfered during the transaction.

Here is an example:

A photographer takes a picture and sells a one-time usage to a magazine. This magazine is doesn't own the picture, they just rented it (usually at a lower price). The photographer may then sell all rights to a photo house. The magazine calls the photographer to "rent" the photo again, but the photographer no longer owns the rights to it. The magazine may now purchase another one-time usage from the photohouse. If the photographer worked a deal to receive royalties, he may still receive a small profit from the photo house.

The more rights you sell, they more you should receive in payment.

I'm not sure what the courts would decide without a contract. I would consult with a lawyer.

[DCurry]

Originally Posted by prepress_brillance_43

but if they PAID for the print, and the print company said that design was included, then they have already paid for the design, the files should be theirs.... but that's just how I feel.

I can understand where you are coming from, and on a different day in a different mood I might agree with some of your points. Here's another example to help explain where I'm coming from:

Someone gives you a photo to restore/retouch extensively. You give them the price, do the work, then provide them with a print AND a full-res flattened TIFF on disc. Would you also give them your master layered document? I wouldn't, because I have already given them the restored picture physically (the print) and digitally (the flattened TIFF). The master layered file is just a step along the way to the final product. This logic is similar to Guest's policy of giving out a final PDF if required.

Again, if the client supplies the files and the printer just makes a few changes, different story.

[prepress_brillance_43]

Someone gives you a photo to restore/retouch extensively. You give them the price, do the work, then provide them with a print AND a full-res flattened TIFF on disc. Would you also give them your master layered document? I wouldn't, because I have already given them the restored picture physically (the print) and digitally (the flattened TIFF). The master layered file is just a step along the way to the final product. This logic is similar to Guest's policy of giving out a final PDF if required.

I see where you are coming from. and I see the relation to the layout situation. How as a prep guy do you handle telling the customer they can't have their file unless they pay $x.... just curious is all. Thanks for explaining that example for me Dan it does make it more clear. I still think it is a little "shady" to, in fact, "hold files hostage" in attempts to get the print job again. If the customer is satisfied with the quality and customer service they recieved they'll be back. It says you have to "play games" to get work if you wont give the customer their files but say, "WE'LL print it for you." :twisted: but you know there isnt one damn thing that can be done about it...


so back to my original topic of> "where do you all draw the line to saying no to a design job".....

[JoePixel]

Originally Posted by DCurry

Send those my way - they are the best kind of jobs! Every now and then, I want something brainless, and that is an easy $40!

Got this exact situation this week. Take this piece of crap logo, typeset some names into it and make business cards.

So I do that, make a PDF, send it to them, then they want the type bold, (which is different that the printed sample they gave me) so I make another PDF, then they want to see it with Helvetica, so I make another PDF, then they want the logo cleaned up from the crap they gave me.

4 rounds and about 5 hours later, I'm working for minimum wage.

[prepress_brillance_43]

uh, yeah no thanks. After the first pdf if they want to start using me as a tester, no way man, that's another $40 or more.

[PCMac]

I suppose it all depends on one's perspective, really.

I think it goes without saying, every good freelancer needs a good day job, just the same as every good motorcycle needs a car for them rainy days.

If your day job is stable, pays reasonably, and allows you to get through each day with your sanity intact, then yes, it's easier to pick and choose which freelance jobs you will or won't take.

However, if your day job is destabilzing by the hour, and management is running around with their heads cut off not knowing what to do, and the market is such that it will be difficult to find a replacement job anywhere near to what little you are already making, then yeah, it might be advantageous to accept whatever freelance work you can get.

At this particular point, I think we might get through the winter ... but then again, they just might have another bout of layoffs if something doesn't seriously improve, like, RIGHT NOW! It would really SUCK to get canned in the middle of January, ya know?

If any freelance work comes my way, bring it on! No job is too small.

But once you agree on a business card design, that's it! No alterations, no refunds. Not unless you want to pay for a new design, that is.

It's not business ... it's a matter of survival!