Apogee->RAMpage color calibration, profiling

[vinnybear]

My company recently struck a deal with another printing company for us to do a lot of their printing (I won't go into details). They will still prep the files and make their proofs for customer ok on their end using their AGFA Apogee system and, upon customer approval, they will send us the pdf files they used in their workflow for us to use in our RAMpage workflow. On our first job for them we produced our own proofs and there was a drastic difference. Here are the major variables:

1. Their matchprint output device is a AGFA Sherpa 43.
2. Our matchprint output device is a Kodak Polychrome 5542.
3. They use different proofing inks and substrate for their proofs.
4. Their workflow is Apogee.
5. Our workflow is RAMpage.
6. They feed an ICC profile into their workflow that was developed for them from AGFA from test sheets ran on their 8 color press.

I believe that the sixth variable is the most determining of those mentioned. They admit that the ICC profile they use is more based on the Euroscale profile and tends to look more washed out and more yellow, but that is the color that they are used to and the color their customers are used to.
I think what I need to do is find a solution to be able to output the same color as they do based on feeding a ICC profile into the RAMpage workflow. I do not believe that we will just be able to use their profile if they give it to us.
Again, any help at all will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

[ddbray]

Oh what a challange.....

First understand what Rampage is doing with ICC profiles. You run a target for YOUR press and then a target for YOUR proofing device and create an ICC profile for each device. Only when you output to your proofer does the ICC profiles play into the mix.

Example:

you create a 50% screen of Cyan. You know it is exactly 50% Cyan and if you have linear plates that you are giving Press exactly 50% cyan and they print it hopefully under some sort of repeatable standard. Now you want to proof this 50% patch on any proofer. Problem is the Colorants of the press and the proofer are not the same so just 50% cyan ink from the proofer WILL not match the same as 50% cyan ink on the press. But if you use ICC profiles for the Press and Proofer the Rampage will calculate a 50% Cyan color match for the proofer. (Overly simplified but this is how it works)

Now you have a third party who wants to play...

You have no idea how thier ICC profiles were created. They may work fine for what they do internally but more than likely no one else will EVER acheive the same color outside their shop. Also you have no idea what the Colorants are for the inks they use on thier press. Also the ink order plays a roll in the color they produce.

My suggestion is for you to send them your ICC profile target imposed the way you run it on your press (I always have some GATF images impose with this Target so i can make a visual comparison of my proofer to the press). Get them to run it to thier standards and send you back about 50 Color Ok sheets. Now you can make an ICC profile of their press and with a little tweaking you should be able to get your Proofer to match thier output.

Next issue is how to get your press to match theirs. This is a litle more complicated and to be honest I'm not a press guru. But if you get some information from the other shop when they run the ICC profile for you, such as ink order, ink manufacture, ink specifications ie; tack, viscocity..., your press manager should be able to come up with a method for matching thier press sheet.

I hope this helps.

[vinnybear]

We have a Gretag Macbeth ICColor profiling system. We have run out targets on both the proofer and the press and created ICC profiles for them, but every time I try to use them in RAMpage, all that is produced is a solid black image the size of the output area.
My company is too cheap to pay for training for the profiling system, but not so cheap that they would not buy one (go figure). They basically dumped it in my lap and told me to 'make it work.'
My feeble attempts have been to do research on the web as to color theory, the makeup of color profiles, how to use them, etc. As of yet I have had no success implementing color profiling even for our devices/presses. As of right now, I fear that the outcome will be the same trying to color profile another company's press.
Do you know any resources for being able to learn more about the Gretag Macbeth system?

[vinnybear]

Is there a certain format ICC profiles need to be in for RAMpage to use them?

[ddbray]

Are you using Profile maker and a Spectrolino?

[ddbray]

Are you outputting linear plates? Is the other company outputting linear plates? Can you get a press test from the other company along with thier press specifics?

[vinnybear]

"using" ProfileMaker and the ICColor scanner (spectro.)
(I say "using", because I really do not know what I am doing. I am a very intuitive guy and very adaptable, trainable, teachable – but without some training/teaching/understanding, I feel the software/hardware is useless.)

both companies output linear plates

[ddbray]

As far a ICC profileing goes GET SOME HELP. You really need to hire some one who knows what they are doing and yo have to have standards in proofing. platemaking and on press that you can hit day after day othe wise no amout of Profiling will help.

Now if you are running linear plates and the other guy is running linear plates then your problem is in the pres room. Not that their shop is wrong or your shop is wrong, you ar just printing differently. Find out what kind of press they are using, what ink they are using, their ink order, fountain solution, cylinder pressure, blankets and so on and so on.

The press room is the hardest variable in color management to maintain because there are so many variables out there. And once you understand ALL the variables the press man has to deal with, realize that the absolute best press man every born can only hope to control about half of them. So your color WILL vary on press. But a good press depart ment can maintain and control thier output to get you good consistant color day to day.

i hope all this helps.

[silversurfer]

Originally Posted by vinnybear

6. They feed an ICC profile into their workflow that was developed for them from AGFA from test sheets ran on their 8 color press.

I believe that the sixth variable is the most determining of those mentioned. They admit that the ICC profile they use is more based on the Euroscale profile and tends to look more washed out and more yellow, but that is the color that they are used to and the color their customers are used to.
I think what I need to do is find a solution to be able to output the same color as they do based on feeding a ICC profile into the RAMpage workflow. I do not believe that we will just be able to use their profile if they give it to us.
Again, any help at all will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

This is likely the problem all right. Their AGFA system is converting everything into their output profile, so on your system everything looks wrong.

What you need to do is get their press profile, and then set it up in RAMpage as your input profile. I don't know anything about RAMpage, you'd have to figure that out. You will likely need to set up an output profile for your press, if you don't have a custom one yet, perhaps try U.S. SWOP Coated v2.

Try outputting a proof that way and see if it's closer.