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tlotzer · #1 (**permalink**) 07-24-2006, 09:10 AM

If a designer sends a file and their proof (color laser, matchprint, inkjet) and wants us to match it, what is thebest approach?

1. Should we send an "ECI2002V CMYK.tif" for them to printout on their printer, so we could profile it with ProfileMaker? Lets call it Designer.icc

If yes, in Photoshop, lets say we open the image and it contains, say, "U.S. Sheetfed" profile. We honor that profile, then convert to the Designer.icc, or do we convert it to our 6/40 coated press profile? Or both?

2. Or should we open both the Designer.icc and out 6/40 Press profile in ProfileMaker and create another profile from those 2 profiles?

Is the destination the Designer.icc or our 6/40 profile?

LoganBlade · #2 (**permalink**) 07-24-2006, 11:04 AM

Find out if they have a profiled printer that prints acurate color. If not create a proof from their file and send it along to them and tell them this is what the colors should be from a good color calibrated proof.

tlotzer · #3 (**permalink**) 07-24-2006, 11:13 AM

The problem is that they want us to match their proof.

I received a matchprint for a job last week. I opened their tif, honored the embedded "Kodak ????.icc" profile, converted to our 6/40 Coated Press Profile and we matched darn close. When I did not convert to our profile first, we got real red and yellow. It looked like we doubled up on the profiles in the RIP.

In that case, the color house embedded their profile, but what do we do if the file just has a generic profile (e.g. US Sheetfed), printed on their unprofiled color desktop laser printer?

What are the steps to get our proof to match their low end laser printer? Don't we need a profile of their printer? Do we convert the file to their profile, then to ours? Do we need to create a third profile using both our 6/40 coated and their laser profile? Our do we just build a profile from the Chart, plug that into Rampage's Color management and use their profile as our destination rather than our press profile?

ddbray · #4 (**permalink**) 07-24-2006, 12:20 PM

ICC Profiles... CONFUSSING.

Ok lets start with basic printing.

I create a 50% Cyan patch by what ever means I desire (PSD, AI, INDD or with film). I expect to get a 50% printed piece on press (Understanding that there will be dot gain) Nothing to do with ICC PROFILE. In other words if your files are setup to the numbers and you output linear plates and control dot gain on press ( Like we used to do with film) you result are prety predicatble.

Now what ICC Profiles do for you is give you a Color Map (Gamut) of any printing device that you profile. This is just information that a divice can use to make itself look like another device provided that the other divice gamut is contained in the device you want to match on. It really has nothing to do with printing the job on a high en printing press.

Now I know that some people are under the understaning that if I apply an ICC Provile to my PHOTOSHOP image then i will see on screen how it will print. NOT SO. If your screen is not calibrated to the same standards day in and day out, your results will vary.

My practice is to strip all ICC Profile infor from my files amd make sure that the numbers are gray balanced in Photoshop. I then rip using Rampage and only apply the ICC Profile to my Proofer making it resemble my Printing Press. When i output plates they are linear with NO ICC Profiles involved.

Remember you have to be Gray balanced because that is what printing is all about, creating Nutral Density Gray out of CMY.

As far as a low end color laser you will NEVER match the color output. It is not calibrated and controlled by a rip that can translate the ICC Profile accutrately.

LoganBlade · #5 (**permalink**) 07-24-2006, 02:02 PM

Like I said

Show them your proof from your system and tell them they are comparing a piece of coal (their printer) to a Diamond (your proof).

If you are matching proofs to press tell them to pile sand if they want you to match a machine that has no clue about control of color.

those are my thoughts good luck

frailer · #6 (**permalink**) 07-25-2006, 04:49 AM

We have to deal with this all the time. The other posters have pretty much said it. Colour (and how it will print), seems to be almost universally misunderstood by designers. Our stock-standard response is; "Have a look at the (in our case BlackMagic/Epson) proof...this is what we will print from your file on our $half mill (or whatever) printing press". We keep an eye on filmsetter calibration (laser adjusted if necessary), so we know we are imaging the dot properly.
Of course, half the time it's how you say it to them without offending. Patient explaining and assertiveness is what it's all about. If you're confident in YOUR setup, then you're 3/4 of the way there. You can almost guarantee that they have a printer which spits out paper with "colour on it". Nothing more. Every now and then we print something which is close to a supplied proof. They are usually from larger ad agencies who have some sort of clue regarding colour.
It's an endless topic and I'm no expert, but don't be "spooked" by some designer who is asking you to match something he/she is supplying, just because they don't know any better, and because they happen to like the way THEIR printer output it.

mc_hristel · #7 (**permalink**) 07-25-2006, 06:26 AM

Yep, and assuming you are confident that your proof is going to match what is seen on press it is simple to say that "this is how your file will print". When it doesn't match, it is up to the client to decide if they want to be charged alts for you to adjust the color in the file, or if they want to do it themselves. If they want to do it, then you would want to suply your press profile so they can see more accurately what they will get. Either way, if this is (or will be)a repeat customer, get them the profile for future use.

What ever you do, don't just change your proofer to get a good looking proof. You will never match it on press.

-MC

tlotzer · #8 (**permalink**) 07-25-2006, 06:40 AM

We are working with the Photographer and designer. All 3 companies are working together to solve the issue/workflow.

I sent them our 6/40 coated.icc profile. My question is should they plug our profile into photoshop so when converting the RGB images to CMYK it would give them the correct conversion.

I think, in order to proof it corrrectly at their shop, they would need their proofer to use our ICC profile or a hybrid of their ICC and ours.

What we are trying to do is NOT to color correct at our printshop, but let them proof it at their shop using our profile to match our press.

If they can see the color of our press on their printer/proofer, then it will cut out a lot of waste.

silversurfer · #9 (**permalink**) 07-25-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlotzer

If a designer sends a file and their proof (color laser, matchprint, inkjet) and wants us to match it, what is thebest approach?

1. Should we send an "ECI2002V CMYK.tif" for them to printout on their printer, so we could profile it with ProfileMaker? Lets call it Designer.icc

If yes, in Photoshop, lets say we open the image and it contains, say, "U.S. Sheetfed" profile. We honor that profile, then convert to the Designer.icc, or do we convert it to our 6/40 coated press profile? Or both?

2. Or should we open both the Designer.icc and out 6/40 Press profile in ProfileMaker and create another profile from those 2 profiles?

Is the destination the Designer.icc or our 6/40 profile?

Yeah, you've got the right idea, here. Don't let the colour management naysayers discourage you.

The best thing to do in the case would be to honour the embedded profile, then convert it to your press profile. However, this might not match your customer's proof, because they might not be using an output profile on their printer (in other words, their printer may be inaccurate).

Quote:

We are working with the Photographer and designer. All 3 companies are working together to solve the issue/workflow.

I sent them our 6/40 coated.icc profile. My question is should they plug our profile into photoshop so when converting the RGB images to CMYK it would give them the correct conversion.

I think, in order to proof it corrrectly at their shop, they would need their proofer to use our ICC profile or a hybrid of their ICC and ours.

What we are trying to do is NOT to color correct at our printshop, but let them proof it at their shop using our profile to match our press.

If they can see the color of our press on their printer/proofer, then it will cut out a lot of waste.

You can do this pretty easily within InDesign CS2, or any CS2 application.

Go to View --> Proof Setup --> Custom...

Select your Press profile, make sure "Preserve CMYK Numbers" is deactivated, "Simulate Black Ink" should be enabled, "Simulate Paper Color" is kind of optional.

Now InDesign is 'softproofing' your press on their (hopefully calibrated) monitor.

Now go to Print --> Output 'tab'

Select Composite CMYK

Now go to Color Management 'tab'

Change Color Handling to Let InDesign Determine Colors
Under Printer Profile, select the customer's printer profile
Under Print, check Proof. Your press profile should be displayed.

That should simulate your press on their printer.

Good luck.

digitaldog · #10 (**permalink**) 07-26-2006, 03:56 PM

Everyone is making this way too complicated. ICC profiles are simple and the key. You simply need two profiles. One for their process, one for yours. Doesn't matter if it's RGB or CMYK (although CMYK to CMYK does bring up some possible black generation issues). A Device Link can help a great deal but the bottom line is we need to know how two completely different devices behave and need specific RGB or CMYK numbers for each. If you have that, color space conversions with the proper intent and a bit of massaging will get the match a good 90%-95% assuming the papers are not totally dissimilar.