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Rob · #1 (**permalink**) 03-28-2006, 11:05 PM

Hi All,

I've got the following question regarding working to customers proofs for colour on-press:

I'm currently working in a studio with two Artpro workstations outputting to a Creo Trendsetter: processing mainly direct mail work. It is often the case that customers send in colour proofs of their own to accompany the digital files they supply, which we must match on press. The problem is that there are seldom control strips on the proofs and so we have no idea of the dot gain or output profile - often the proofs are sent via agencies or other third parties that we are unaware of. In some cases we are able to establish a relationship with the customers' agency or repro department and acquire details of their proofing profile - but more often than not we are unable to do this.

The solution we are using is a library of custom output curves - but these seem to work with limited success: some jobs work, others (especially with difficult colours) will not - despite the pressmen tweeking all the settings available to them.

We deal with known problem proofs by outputting an inhouse proof for visual comparison before issuing the job the plates, but this is expensive and time consuming. Our proofer is a Dupont Cromalin 4Q (soon to be replaced) and takes an age to produce even a C6 envelope. When the worst comes to the worst we have to effectively "proof on-press", making adjustments and outputting new plates. This is hellish expensive considering the repro time, plate materials, and standing press time (for example out KBA Rapidia machine costs around ?350/hour).

I appreciate that there are probably no magic bullets for these issues, but am keenly interested to hear how other printers approach this type of thing and if anyone else has any similar headaches!

Look forward to replies!

jason · #2 (**permalink**) 03-29-2006, 04:15 AM

Quote:

The problem is that there are seldom control strips on the proofs

It's not a proof unless it has a control strip.

You need to charge the customer to match their "proofs." You are spending too much time & money adjusting the files.

Take the job in, output a proof and give it to them. If they don't like it, there will be charges to change it.

This is how many printers operate.

I have gotten a few customer "proofs" that did have a control strip, but looking at the strip you can see that the proofs were not even in gray balance. It most cases whoever set up their proofer had no idea what they were doing.

tuff_gong · #3 (**permalink**) 03-29-2006, 05:10 AM

Give them YOUR press profile - then it's their problem to match it. If they can't or won't use yours, it's their problem.

clod · #4 (**permalink**) 03-29-2006, 05:22 AM

Uhg...one of my pet peeves. The pretty picture proof the represents nothing about how it will print. Dealing with this, we've gone as far as to request an ECI or IT8 target printed off the clients "proofer", create a profile from that and use it to perform CMYK->CMYK conversion (either traditional or device link). in order to capture the look of the "proof" while gaining some more realistic CMYK values for the print conditions. This has worked, but its not perfect. A good thing to come out of this is once you have that target from there system, you can compare it to say, TR001 data and show the client just how far off there proof is from a standard data set in delta E. It usually confuses the hell out of them, but it gets them thinking. Of course we've also gone the route of manual correction in photoshop as well. :?

Vanguard · #5 (**permalink**) 03-29-2006, 05:54 AM

I agree that you need to give the customer the curves to calibrate their proofer to your press, otherwise you will be chasing your tail. I know this happens to some and has happened to me, you get a printout off of the customers laser printer, the one they use to write to Aunt Mable or something and they expect you to match that. Their printer has not been calibrated and as was mentioned earlier, if it does not have a control strip, it is not a proof. It may be a sample or something else whatever you want to call it but it is not a press quality proof.

In short the provider of the proof has to have their proofer calibrated and the printer needs to know what the curves are to match.

digitaldog · #6 (**permalink**) 03-29-2006, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clod

Uhg...one of my pet peeves. The pretty picture proof the represents nothing about how it will print. Dealing with this, we've gone as far as to request an ECI or IT8 target printed off the clients "proofer", create a profile from that and use it to perform CMYK->CMYK conversion (either traditional or device link). in order to capture the look of the "proof" while gaining some more realistic CMYK values for the print conditions. This has worked, but its not perfect. A good thing to come out of this is once you have that target from there system, you can compare it to say, TR001 data and show the client just how far off there proof is from a standard data set in delta E. :?

I lot of work on your part but I applaud you for this! It makes a lot of sense to help customers dial their process into yours.

ctango · #7 (**permalink**) 03-29-2006, 09:30 AM

If you insist on working with the files they provide, make a PDF out of whatever DTP app you work with. Take the PDF in to Acrobat Pro and strip all ICC profiles out with Enfocus pitstop. The in Acrobat go through and assign different profiles to PDF and see which one matches the proof the closest. Then back to Pitstop and create an action that will take the profile you have found to match theirs (maybe even a proofer profile) and CONVERT to your press profile or similar (SWOP, SNAP, etc).

That should work, not perfect or great But work.

chris

Rob · #8 (**permalink**) 03-29-2006, 09:44 AM

Guys, thanks for the replies!

It would be nice to make it the customers problem, but the geographical location of the plant is out of the way and so we have to work that bit harder! A sales rep will return with a handful of iris proofs, no control strips, saying "I've got the contract [look how well I've done]", not wanting to trouble the customer with "details". I guess the sales pitchers don't want to do anything that might jeopardise their contract bagging process - there's always someone else that will do it if you won't.

I like the idea of sending the customers studio an IT8 target, and also showing the gamut difference between their proof and the destination process. How much do profile writers charge does anyone know, and are there any no-so-obvious pitfalls to watch out for? We've only got two profiles at the moment: coated, uncoated - for four machines, two webfed, two sheetfed and more than a few different papers. I suspect that it's time to think about creating some more profiles...

With regard to CMYK-->CMYK profile conversion - what about if the customer supplies a PDF (which they normally will do)? Artpro doesn't handle profile conversion - and it would be far too slow converting the images and vector work elements individually? I presume Acrobat will allow you to tag "naked" CMYK work and then convert it to your destination profile? [ctango - we havn't got pitstop! and yes I know we should have]

Right, enough rambling from me, thanks for your help guys!

overprintboy · #9 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 02:43 PM

In a perfect world,_mine_, the customer would use our profiles, but alas, we just spit out a proof, match the PMS book say this is it.

If the customer complains, ask them exactly how they can match the book with their proofs, blah blah

Course, when our customers are our own design agency and they still don't listen, then well....